Comments on: Bielski Brothers inhabit shallow narrative in action-styled Defiance http://www.americanmadness.com/2009/01/11/bielski-brothers-inhabit-shallow-narrative-in-action-styled-defiance/ Intelligent Criticism in the Service of a Better Nation Mon, 31 Oct 2011 18:43:41 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Michael http://www.americanmadness.com/2009/01/11/bielski-brothers-inhabit-shallow-narrative-in-action-styled-defiance/comment-page-1/#comment-187269 Michael Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:16:55 +0000 http://www.americanmadness.com/?p=2587#comment-187269 I know that you’ve lied here many times, since you can’t base your argument on historical facts (all of them go against your views) you have to resort to lying. First of all, it is obvious that apartheid in the South Africa was different than it is now in Israel; it was based on the division of races. This racial division is totally unachievable in Israel and the occupied territories, since Arabs and Jews are of the same race – they are Semitic “Brothers”. The apartheid in Israel and the occupied territories is bases rather on religion than on race, nevertheless Israel’s apartheid is what it is: a policy of segregation and separation. There are so many examples of apartheid in Israel that I could give but for now I will give you just a couple: The Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law which prohibits Palestinian Arabs from getting Israeli citizenship through marriage. This law is directed both against Israeli Arabs (they are the most likely people who would marry Palestinians) and Palestine Arabs who are branded as undesirables. Aharon Barak, Israel's Chief Justice has declared: "This violation of rights is directed against Arab citizens of Israel. As a result, therefore, the law is a violation of the right of Arab citizens in Israel to equality." Secondly, the dreaded Teudat Zehut which just like the South African Native Identity Card helps segregate people on the bases of their ethnicity. Interestingly, understanding that the Zionist would easily lose the struggle for the public opinion with this bland example of segregation, the government had dropped the ethnic indicator, thinking that it would fool the public. Still the carriers of the Teudat Zehut can be easily segregated into Jews who have their Hebrew date of birth displayed from non-Jews without it. As you can see it was clearly a cosmetic maneuver by the Zionist government that had failed anyway, just like the striking down by the Supreme Court of the ban on Arab parties in the last Israeli election. I am not even going to discuss the treatment of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories but if you want learn more about it read Jimmy Carter’s book Palestine Peace not Apartheid. It is a great read, and the effort in USA to brand him as an anti-Semite (who else?) by the Zionists had failed miserably. Here I would like to quote Norman Gary Finkelstein: "After four decades of Israeli occupation, the infrastructure and superstructure of apartheid have been put in place. Outside the never-never land of mainstream American Jewry and U.S. media, this reality is barely disputed." Next, the feud between Stephen Wise the leader of American Jewry at that time and Peter Bergson who had worked tirelessly to rescue the European Jews is very well documented. Some Zionist apologists suggest that Wise didn’t want to bring more Jews to America because it would raise anti-Semitic sentiments in USA where already a solid majority was opposed to joining the WW2. He didn’t want to make the WW2 looking like a Jewish war…. Others Zionist apologists suggest that it was a purely political struggle for the leadership of the American Jewry, but I as well many others would point out that Wise was Herzl’s follower and you should know about Herzl’s attitude towards Jews immigrating to countries other than Palestine. It is exactly like Wise argued: more Jews entering USA will raise anti-Semitism, if you don’t believe me check Herzl’s The Jewish State at http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/6640/zion/judenstaadt.html “The Jewish question exists wherever Jews live in perceptible numbers. Where it does not exist, it is carried by Jews in the course of their migrations. We naturally move to those places where we are not persecuted, and there our presence produces persecution. ….. The unfortunate Jews are now carrying the seeds of Anti-Semitism into England; they have already introduced it into America.” One way or another, the most telling comment is made by Wise himself when asked about a possibility of transporting Jews who were escaping Nazis terror to Tanganyika: “I would rather have my fellow Jews die in Germany…” a very solemn comment. For further study you can check many works about it, for example: Holocaust Victims Accuse, or even the Slattery Proposal. Google it ….. What else? Yes the ethnic cleansing: the Palestinians refuges who are not allowed to return to their homes are the best example of the ethnic cleansing, but since you are not a strong believer in the obvious you can read several well documented books about it: the work by Dr. Pappe should be a good start for you. Anyway, reading the Koenig Report should enlighten you both on the modern ethnic cleansing as well as the Israeli apartheid’s methods. I understand that you are dealing with a demographic crisis in Israel and the Occupied Territories, the one state solution if implemented right now wouldn’t work for you at all: right from start Palestinians would probably win the plurality because of the fragmentation of Israel’s political parties. That is why your politicians are so opposed to it, and the two state solution is seemingly preferred, but with the “unfavorable” demographic growth of Arab population within Israel this could result in the same situation within 50 years. Therefore, you are “compelled” to use the ethnic cleansing and apartheid to contain this situation, but unfortunately for you the world is watching and we see that the preferred solution is the South African model with Jews being the majority of Israel and the settlements in the Occupied Territories de facto the ruling cast while the “locals” the native Palestinians would be living in a highly fragmentized Homelands. As I wrote above but the world is watching you!!! I know that you’ve lied here many times, since you can’t base your argument on historical facts (all of them go against your views) you have to resort to lying. First of all, it is obvious that apartheid in the South Africa was different than it is now in Israel; it was based on the division of races. This racial division is totally unachievable in Israel and the occupied territories, since Arabs and Jews are of the same race – they are Semitic “Brothers”. The apartheid in Israel and the occupied territories is bases rather on religion than on race, nevertheless Israel’s apartheid is what it is: a policy of segregation and separation. There are so many examples of apartheid in Israel that I could give but for now I will give you just a couple: The Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law which prohibits Palestinian Arabs from getting Israeli citizenship through marriage. This law is directed both against Israeli Arabs (they are the most likely people who would marry Palestinians) and Palestine Arabs who are branded as undesirables. Aharon Barak, Israel’s Chief Justice has declared: “This violation of rights is directed against Arab citizens of Israel. As a result, therefore, the law is a violation of the right of Arab citizens in Israel to equality.” Secondly, the dreaded Teudat Zehut which just like the South African Native Identity Card helps segregate people on the bases of their ethnicity. Interestingly, understanding that the Zionist would easily lose the struggle for the public opinion with this bland example of segregation, the government had dropped the ethnic indicator, thinking that it would fool the public. Still the carriers of the Teudat Zehut can be easily segregated into Jews who have their Hebrew date of birth displayed from non-Jews without it. As you can see it was clearly a cosmetic maneuver by the Zionist government that had failed anyway, just like the striking down by the Supreme Court of the ban on Arab parties in the last Israeli election. I am not even going to discuss the treatment of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories but if you want learn more about it read Jimmy Carter’s book Palestine Peace not Apartheid. It is a great read, and the effort in USA to brand him as an anti-Semite (who else?) by the Zionists had failed miserably. Here I would like to quote Norman Gary Finkelstein: “After four decades of Israeli occupation, the infrastructure and superstructure of apartheid have been put in place. Outside the never-never land of mainstream American Jewry and U.S. media, this reality is barely disputed.”
Next, the feud between Stephen Wise the leader of American Jewry at that time and Peter Bergson who had worked tirelessly to rescue the European Jews is very well documented. Some Zionist apologists suggest that Wise didn’t want to bring more Jews to America because it would raise anti-Semitic sentiments in USA where already a solid majority was opposed to joining the WW2. He didn’t want to make the WW2 looking like a Jewish war…. Others Zionist apologists suggest that it was a purely political struggle for the leadership of the American Jewry, but I as well many others would point out that Wise was Herzl’s follower and you should know about Herzl’s attitude towards Jews immigrating to countries other than Palestine. It is exactly like Wise argued: more Jews entering USA will raise anti-Semitism, if you don’t believe me check Herzl’s The Jewish State at http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/6640/zion/judenstaadt.html “The Jewish question exists wherever Jews live in perceptible numbers. Where it does not exist, it is carried by Jews in the course of their migrations. We naturally move to those places where we are not persecuted, and there our presence produces persecution. ….. The unfortunate Jews are now carrying the seeds of Anti-Semitism into England; they have already introduced it into America.” One way or another, the most telling comment is made by Wise himself when asked about a possibility of transporting Jews who were escaping Nazis terror to Tanganyika: “I would rather have my fellow Jews die in Germany…” a very solemn comment. For further study you can check many works about it, for example: Holocaust Victims Accuse, or even the Slattery Proposal. Google it …..
What else? Yes the ethnic cleansing: the Palestinians refuges who are not allowed to return to their homes are the best example of the ethnic cleansing, but since you are not a strong believer in the obvious you can read several well documented books about it: the work by Dr. Pappe should be a good start for you. Anyway, reading the Koenig Report should enlighten you both on the modern ethnic cleansing as well as the Israeli apartheid’s methods.
I understand that you are dealing with a demographic crisis in Israel and the Occupied Territories, the one state solution if implemented right now wouldn’t work for you at all: right from start Palestinians would probably win the plurality because of the fragmentation of Israel’s political parties. That is why your politicians are so opposed to it, and the two state solution is seemingly preferred, but with the “unfavorable” demographic growth of Arab population within Israel this could result in the same situation within 50 years. Therefore, you are “compelled” to use the ethnic cleansing and apartheid to contain this situation, but unfortunately for you the world is watching and we see that the preferred solution is the South African model with Jews being the majority of Israel and the settlements in the Occupied Territories de facto the ruling cast while the “locals” the native Palestinians would be living in a highly fragmentized Homelands. As I wrote above but the world is watching you!!!

]]> By: Jason Ihle http://www.americanmadness.com/2009/01/11/bielski-brothers-inhabit-shallow-narrative-in-action-styled-defiance/comment-page-1/#comment-186673 Jason Ihle Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:03:42 +0000 http://www.americanmadness.com/?p=2587#comment-186673 I lied. I can't help but respond to your abhorrently disgusting, vitriolic, racist claims that Israel has a policy of ethnic cleansing of Arabs. It's actually the most dangerous kind of ignorance because you come armed with quotations and historical references, making it appear to those who don't know any better that you're accurate. Under the apartheid system in South Africa, the black majority were oppressed by a white minority. Laws dictated that blacks could neither vote nor participate in government. Blacks were restricted in their movements, where they could live, what education they could receive and what jobs they could hold. In Israel, a Jewish majority state (not a Jewish exclusivity state, as you seem to believe), many Arabs live with exactly the same rights and privileges as all Jewish Israeli citizens. They have freedom of movement and of education. They can hold any job they're qualified for. They can vote. They can and do participate in government. There have been and are Arab Israelis in the Knesset and Arabs have even been members of the cabinet. Where is the apartheid system again? Where is the ethnic cleansing? I'm so glad you're able to find the full Herzl quotation all over the Internet. Mind providing a link to one? I'm not even bothering the rest of the bullshit in your argument because I don't have room for this kind of stress. Zionists lobbied foreign governments to refuse visas to Jews trying to escape Europe? Jesus fucking Christ, what will you fucktards think of next? I lied.

I can’t help but respond to your abhorrently disgusting, vitriolic, racist claims that Israel has a policy of ethnic cleansing of Arabs. It’s actually the most dangerous kind of ignorance because you come armed with quotations and historical references, making it appear to those who don’t know any better that you’re accurate.

Under the apartheid system in South Africa, the black majority were oppressed by a white minority. Laws dictated that blacks could neither vote nor participate in government. Blacks were restricted in their movements, where they could live, what education they could receive and what jobs they could hold.

In Israel, a Jewish majority state (not a Jewish exclusivity state, as you seem to believe), many Arabs live with exactly the same rights and privileges as all Jewish Israeli citizens. They have freedom of movement and of education. They can hold any job they’re qualified for. They can vote. They can and do participate in government. There have been and are Arab Israelis in the Knesset and Arabs have even been members of the cabinet. Where is the apartheid system again? Where is the ethnic cleansing?

I’m so glad you’re able to find the full Herzl quotation all over the Internet. Mind providing a link to one?

I’m not even bothering the rest of the bullshit in your argument because I don’t have room for this kind of stress. Zionists lobbied foreign governments to refuse visas to Jews trying to escape Europe? Jesus fucking Christ, what will you fucktards think of next?

]]> By: Michael http://www.americanmadness.com/2009/01/11/bielski-brothers-inhabit-shallow-narrative-in-action-styled-defiance/comment-page-1/#comment-186626 Michael Fri, 24 Apr 2009 01:36:05 +0000 http://www.americanmadness.com/?p=2587#comment-186626 Your comments are consistent with the stand taken by most Zionist lobbyist in the USA, which does mean that it is a correct one. Being critical of Israel's apartheid policies, or even questioning the legitimacy of Israel's creation is in no way antisemitic. No all Jews live in Israel and not all Jews are Zionist. If we follow the faulty logic of Zionists, we couldn't say that USA was created from lands stolen from the Natives (which is true), that early American colonizers and governments engaged in ethnic cleansing and genocide (which is also true) or that until late 1960's the Southern States were engaged in apartheid (called segregation) towards colored people (which is also true). Would we be somehow anti Aryan or anti White. This would be foolish just like the policy of antizionism equaling antisemitism pushed in USA by the Zionist lobby. Anyway, it is interesting how the Zionist has hijacked the antisemitic term: Semites are Arabs and their brothers Jews as well as few other African peoples. As for not being able to find quotes, strangely enough i can google hundreds perhaps thousands of sites with that exact quote, maybe you should turn off your "Zionist Watch" a program similar to "Parental Watch" lol Any group punishments like the destruction of homes of alleged terrorist families are considered by the UN as war crimes because it is an act of terror, therefore a terrorism. As for your convoluted claims of Jeiwsh historic right to the Palestinian land, it would be very funny if not for the thousand who already had died because of nonsense like that. Palestinians are not from "every Arab country surrounding Israel." They are from Palestine, and you have stolen their land (see Ben Gurion's quote from my previous posting). Just to make it more clear to you, read what another Zionist hero had said addressing the Jewish Colonization Society of Vienna in 1907: "Every study of present-day conditions in Palestine must use as its starting point the manner in which the 80,000 Jews of that country immigrated -- beginning with the few thousand Sephardic Jews who were already to be found there a century ago." The Picture in 1907, Dr. Arthur Ruppin. The facts are clear: there were few thousand Jews in Palestine at the beginning of XIX century, most of them were assimilated and spoke Arabic. Over the next hundred years the Jewish population has grown to 80 000 (very positive estimate) with the vast majority of them being fresh immigrants. All of them lived in among the vast majority of Muslim and Christian Arabs of Palestine. As for historical Jewish homeland, it is clearly a propaganda tool since Herzl's was also looking at .... Argentine as another possible location for Israel. You would probably use the same rhetoric if you were stealing land from Argentinians now. It is a myth created to explain why you had to steal land from its owners: it is ours because hundreds or thousands years ago.... Jews couldn't get visas to other countries because Zionist lobbied those countries not to take in Jews, since it would create social problem there called ... antisemitism. You can see the worry about emigration to other than Israel countries in Herzl's writings. Unfortunately for Zionists but fortunately for many Jews it'd came to fruition: more Jews lives in USA now than in Israel. Zionists had put European Jews between a rock (cultivating antisemitism through out Europe) and a hard place (visa refusals to other countries after prolong lobbying from Zionists), so they would have either immigrate to Palestine or die in the gas chambers as many did. If all of this failed the Zionists had used terrorism to stop Jews from not settling in Palestine for example the Patria “disaster” again killing their own. Sharon was right saying that "...., we are Judeo-Nazis, and why not?", Zionism is a form of Jewish Nazism, since it wants to create a country only for one ethnic group (Jews) with the others being either killed or expelled (thous the thousands of Arabs killed and the Palestinian refugees) and the rest could be kept as a uneducated slaves in the occupied territories (striking similarities to the Germans aim for local population of the GG and other occupied territories in the East). It should be noted that Zionism was created in the same era like the other -isms: Bolshevism, Communism and Fascism, and therefore it is prone to preach similar ideas. Looking at it from a personal point, i can see that Herzl had failed on one of the issues so important to him. Reading his writings you can feel the pain seeing the ghettos would cause him, so misguidedly he'd created Zionism to stop that pain. Wouldn't you know that more than hundred years later, the Zionist Jews are still living in a ghetto, it is indeed much larger one, but it is also surrounded by the walls, walls that the Jews had build themselves this time. It is unwise to leave their country by land as they are now hated by their neighbors much more than ever before (with the exceptions of Nazis). And just like those poorest of the Ghetto's Jews who lived on the handouts of others, the whole new ghetto lives on the handout of others (this time from USA to the tune of billions of dollars yearly) because again they can't prosper on their own. Is it indeed the Zenit of what the Jews want? "The promise land"? After so many millions were sacrificed? After so much evil was done? I hope it is a never ending nightmare for Herzl, that he is turning in his grave constantly. Your comments are consistent with the stand taken by most Zionist lobbyist in the USA, which does mean that it is a correct one. Being critical of Israel’s apartheid policies, or even questioning the legitimacy of Israel’s creation is in no way antisemitic. No all Jews live in Israel and not all Jews are Zionist. If we follow the faulty logic of Zionists, we couldn’t say that USA was created from lands stolen from the Natives (which is true), that early American colonizers and governments engaged in ethnic cleansing and genocide (which is also true) or that until late 1960’s the Southern States were engaged in apartheid (called segregation) towards colored people (which is also true). Would we be somehow anti Aryan or anti White. This would be foolish just like the policy of antizionism equaling antisemitism pushed in USA by the Zionist lobby. Anyway, it is interesting how the Zionist has hijacked the antisemitic term: Semites are Arabs and their brothers Jews as well as few other African peoples.
As for not being able to find quotes, strangely enough i can google hundreds perhaps thousands of sites with that exact quote, maybe you should turn off your “Zionist Watch” a program similar to “Parental Watch” lol
Any group punishments like the destruction of homes of alleged terrorist families are considered by the UN as war crimes because it is an act of terror, therefore a terrorism.
As for your convoluted claims of Jeiwsh historic right to the Palestinian land, it would be very funny if not for the thousand who already had died because of nonsense like that. Palestinians are not from “every Arab country surrounding Israel.” They are from Palestine, and you have stolen their land (see Ben Gurion’s quote from my previous posting). Just to make it more clear to you, read what another Zionist hero had said addressing the Jewish Colonization Society of Vienna in 1907: “Every study of present-day conditions in Palestine must use as its starting point the manner in which the 80,000 Jews of that country immigrated — beginning with the few thousand Sephardic Jews who were already to be found there a century ago.” The Picture in 1907, Dr. Arthur Ruppin.
The facts are clear: there were few thousand Jews in Palestine at the beginning of XIX century, most of them were assimilated and spoke Arabic. Over the next hundred years the Jewish population has grown to 80 000 (very positive estimate) with the vast majority of them being fresh immigrants. All of them lived in among the vast majority of Muslim and Christian Arabs of Palestine. As for historical Jewish homeland, it is clearly a propaganda tool since Herzl’s was also looking at …. Argentine as another possible location for Israel. You would probably use the same rhetoric if you were stealing land from Argentinians now. It is a myth created to explain why you had to steal land from its owners: it is ours because hundreds or thousands years ago….
Jews couldn’t get visas to other countries because Zionist lobbied those countries not to take in Jews, since it would create social problem there called … antisemitism. You can see the worry about emigration to other than Israel countries in Herzl’s writings. Unfortunately for Zionists but fortunately for many Jews it’d came to fruition: more Jews lives in USA now than in Israel. Zionists had put European Jews between a rock (cultivating antisemitism through out Europe) and a hard place (visa refusals to other countries after prolong lobbying from Zionists), so they would have either immigrate to Palestine or die in the gas chambers as many did. If all of this failed the Zionists had used terrorism to stop Jews from not settling in Palestine for example the Patria “disaster” again killing their own.
Sharon was right saying that “…., we are Judeo-Nazis, and why not?”, Zionism is a form of Jewish Nazism, since it wants to create a country only for one ethnic group (Jews) with the others being either killed or expelled (thous the thousands of Arabs killed and the Palestinian refugees) and the rest could be kept as a uneducated slaves in the occupied territories (striking similarities to the Germans aim for local population of the GG and other occupied territories in the East). It should be noted that Zionism was created in the same era like the other -isms: Bolshevism, Communism and Fascism, and therefore it is prone to preach similar ideas.
Looking at it from a personal point, i can see that Herzl had failed on one of the issues so important to him. Reading his writings you can feel the pain seeing the ghettos would cause him, so misguidedly he’d created Zionism to stop that pain.
Wouldn’t you know that more than hundred years later, the Zionist Jews are still living in a ghetto, it is indeed much larger one, but it is also surrounded by the walls, walls that the Jews had build themselves this time. It is unwise to leave their country by land as they are now hated by their neighbors much more than ever before (with the exceptions of Nazis). And just like those poorest of the Ghetto’s Jews who lived on the handouts of others, the whole new ghetto lives on the handout of others (this time from USA to the tune of billions of dollars yearly) because again they can’t prosper on their own. Is it indeed the Zenit of what the Jews want? “The promise land”? After so many millions were sacrificed? After so much evil was done?
I hope it is a never ending nightmare for Herzl, that he is turning in his grave constantly.

]]> By: Jason Ihle http://www.americanmadness.com/2009/01/11/bielski-brothers-inhabit-shallow-narrative-in-action-styled-defiance/comment-page-1/#comment-186445 Jason Ihle Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:09:00 +0000 http://www.americanmadness.com/?p=2587#comment-186445 Your words: "Words like terrorist, terrorist supporter, antisemite, neonazi, and fascist are commonly used to discredit those who disagree." My response: "When you deny the right of Jews to have a homeland (anti-Zionist, that is) then you are being anti-Semitic." This was not an accusation that you specifically are anti-Semitic, but rather a response to your contention that the term anti-Semite is used against anyone who disagrees with Israel. If you re-read what I wrote you'll see that I have said it's possible to disagree without being anti-Semitic, but very few actually succeed. And to split hairs a little here, you're trying to claim the existence of Israel as illegitimate - which is an anti-Semitic viewpoint. Why are the Jews not entitled to legal nation in a place that Jews have historically occupied for thousands of years, a place that is both historically and religiously important to them. And this only after it became blatantly obvious to the world that when it comes down to it, no nation on earth was going to protect the Jews. Nobody was allowing Jews entry visas at the start of WWII in Europe. That is why Israel exists. Sorry, it's not terrorism for a government to destroy buildings that harbor terrorists, terrorist financiers and safe houses for terrorist weapons. That is Israeli policy, not destroying the homes of people who once said hello to a terrorist. And you're grossly misinformed on what happened in that region at the start of the formation of the nation of Israel and on apartheid. To refer to the land as belonging to the Palestinians before the Jews "stole" it reveals your unbearable ignorance. The Palestinians have been rejected from every Arab country surrounding Israel. Why does no one insist that those countries owe them anything. Look, at this point in history I believe the Palestinians should have a nation to call their own alongside Israel. Most Israelis feel the same way. Look at the historical evidence for the number of times they've been offered and then subsequently rejected said offer because they refuse to recognize Israel. And I'm curious as to how I can be spewing Zionist propaganda on an issue I only learned about from you - the existence of Jews who danced the Horah while going into the ovens because they knew it would lead to the creation of a homeland for their grandchildren. So you've read Herzl's diaries have you? Or did you just lift the quote off the Real Torah Jews website, which is the closest thing I can find for a primary source on that quotation. I'd like to see it without the ellipses. I'm not claiming Herzl didn't say or believe what you're attributing to him, but let's not pretend like you're so well informed on the subject that you've actually read his diaries, okay? I can also lift quotations off propagandizing websites. You can respond if you want, but I'm done with this conversation. I don't have the time, patience or general temperament to take on the misinformed one at a time. There are far too many of you on the Internet. Your words: “Words like terrorist, terrorist supporter, antisemite, neonazi, and fascist are commonly used to discredit those who disagree.”

My response: “When you deny the right of Jews to have a homeland (anti-Zionist, that is) then you are being anti-Semitic.”

This was not an accusation that you specifically are anti-Semitic, but rather a response to your contention that the term anti-Semite is used against anyone who disagrees with Israel. If you re-read what I wrote you’ll see that I have said it’s possible to disagree without being anti-Semitic, but very few actually succeed.

And to split hairs a little here, you’re trying to claim the existence of Israel as illegitimate – which is an anti-Semitic viewpoint. Why are the Jews not entitled to legal nation in a place that Jews have historically occupied for thousands of years, a place that is both historically and religiously important to them. And this only after it became blatantly obvious to the world that when it comes down to it, no nation on earth was going to protect the Jews. Nobody was allowing Jews entry visas at the start of WWII in Europe. That is why Israel exists.

Sorry, it’s not terrorism for a government to destroy buildings that harbor terrorists, terrorist financiers and safe houses for terrorist weapons. That is Israeli policy, not destroying the homes of people who once said hello to a terrorist.

And you’re grossly misinformed on what happened in that region at the start of the formation of the nation of Israel and on apartheid. To refer to the land as belonging to the Palestinians before the Jews “stole” it reveals your unbearable ignorance. The Palestinians have been rejected from every Arab country surrounding Israel. Why does no one insist that those countries owe them anything. Look, at this point in history I believe the Palestinians should have a nation to call their own alongside Israel. Most Israelis feel the same way. Look at the historical evidence for the number of times they’ve been offered and then subsequently rejected said offer because they refuse to recognize Israel.

And I’m curious as to how I can be spewing Zionist propaganda on an issue I only learned about from you – the existence of Jews who danced the Horah while going into the ovens because they knew it would lead to the creation of a homeland for their grandchildren.

So you’ve read Herzl’s diaries have you? Or did you just lift the quote off the Real Torah Jews website, which is the closest thing I can find for a primary source on that quotation. I’d like to see it without the ellipses. I’m not claiming Herzl didn’t say or believe what you’re attributing to him, but let’s not pretend like you’re so well informed on the subject that you’ve actually read his diaries, okay? I can also lift quotations off propagandizing websites.

You can respond if you want, but I’m done with this conversation. I don’t have the time, patience or general temperament to take on the misinformed one at a time. There are far too many of you on the Internet.

]]> By: Michael http://www.americanmadness.com/2009/01/11/bielski-brothers-inhabit-shallow-narrative-in-action-styled-defiance/comment-page-1/#comment-186429 Michael Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:09:47 +0000 http://www.americanmadness.com/?p=2587#comment-186429 Funny how some people try to make arguments by lying about what the others said/wrote: "When you deny the right of Jews to have a homeland (anti-Zionist, that is) then you are being anti-Semitic." Please show me where i did that? I see that you have indeed established the situation on the ground, Israel exists, but it doesn't change the truth that it was created under false pretenses and by using terror and ethnic cleansing. And for that Israel needs to answer, otherwise you won't have peace ever. As for Israel government not having policy of using terror i will give you just one example now: the policy of summary punishing the families of Palestinians who fight Zionists by demolishing their homes and properties is clearly a state implemented terrorism. Second instance when you engage in distorting what i wrote is the "When you insist that there was a European Jewish conspiracy to accept the Holocaust...", which must be your assumption since i haven't write anything like that. Years of exposure to Zionist propaganda are clearly showing, instead of talking of what is said you write about what the propaganda have thought you to assume about the position of any "antisemite". It is stupid to assume that the European Jews were involved in a conspiracy to kill themselves, everybody wants to live, as a matter of fact they just like any other nation involved in the madness of WW2 tried to survive. While they were doing that, the zionist movement at first (1920's and 1930's) applauded the fascist and nazis as the zionist were hoping that the antisemitism will bolster the numbers of settlers in Palestine. I know that you probably don't want to believe me, but you should believe one of your heroes: Herzl's "Diaries, Part 1, pg.19) ““It is essential that the sufferings of Jews.. . become worse. . . this will assist in realization of our plans. . .I have an excellent idea. . . I shall induce anti-Semites to liquidate Jewish wealth. . . The anti-Semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-Semites shall be our best friends” Then when the killing had started the zionists numerous times refused to help European Jews escape certain death if they weren't allowed to settle in Palestine. Hungarian and Slovakian Jews are the prime example of the Zionist ideology trumping basic human decency and empathy. I can see that you are very strongly believe that you and your cause is right, the believe that has been reinforced by constant exposure only to Zionist propaganda. As for Israel having de facto apartheid laws enlighten yourself by reading "Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law" which was condemned both by the UN and AI as racist. Well I called as I see it, and I won't even go into history of very close ties between Israel and South Africa during its apartheid era. You can dismiss and minimalize "some admittedly disgusting things done on the part of some Israelis" and claim "that it’s equivalent to what has been perpetrated by their surrounding Arab neighbors." Sure 13 Israeli killed is the same as 1300 Palestinians killed, strangely enough it is the same formula used by the Nazis in occupied Central and Eastern Europe: 1 German killed would trigger an execution of 100 "locals". And you probably think that it is the Palestinians who'd stole "your" land after ethnically cleansing it, but the world (at least most of the world) knows the truth and I think you know it too, and if you don't know it I will leave you with a quote from another hero of Zionist movement David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121. Funny how some people try to make arguments by lying about what the others said/wrote: “When you deny the right of Jews to have a homeland (anti-Zionist, that is) then you are being anti-Semitic.” Please show me where i did that? I see that you have indeed established the situation on the ground, Israel exists, but it doesn’t change the truth that it was created under false pretenses and by using terror and ethnic cleansing. And for that Israel needs to answer, otherwise you won’t have peace ever. As for Israel government not having policy of using terror i will give you just one example now: the policy of summary punishing the families of Palestinians who fight Zionists by demolishing their homes and properties is clearly a state implemented terrorism.
Second instance when you engage in distorting what i wrote is the “When you insist that there was a European Jewish conspiracy to accept the Holocaust…”, which must be your assumption since i haven’t write anything like that. Years of exposure to Zionist propaganda are clearly showing, instead of talking of what is said you write about what the propaganda have thought you to assume about the position of any “antisemite”. It is stupid to assume that the European Jews were involved in a conspiracy to kill themselves, everybody wants to live, as a matter of fact they just like any other nation involved in the madness of WW2 tried to survive. While they were doing that, the zionist movement at first (1920’s and 1930’s) applauded the fascist and nazis as the zionist were hoping that the antisemitism will bolster the numbers of settlers in Palestine. I know that you probably don’t want to believe me, but you should believe one of your heroes: Herzl’s “Diaries, Part 1, pg.19) ““It is essential that the sufferings of Jews.. . become worse. . . this will assist in realization of our plans. . .I have an excellent idea. . . I shall induce anti-Semites to liquidate Jewish wealth. . . The anti-Semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-Semites shall be our best friends”
Then when the killing had started the zionists numerous times refused to help European Jews escape certain death if they weren’t allowed to settle in Palestine. Hungarian and Slovakian Jews are the prime example of the Zionist ideology trumping basic human decency and empathy.
I can see that you are very strongly believe that you and your cause is right, the believe that has been reinforced by constant exposure only to Zionist propaganda. As for Israel having de facto apartheid laws enlighten yourself by reading “Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law” which was condemned both by the UN and AI as racist. Well I called as I see it, and I won’t even go into history of very close ties between Israel and South Africa during its apartheid era.
You can dismiss and minimalize “some admittedly disgusting things done on the part of some Israelis” and claim “that it’s equivalent to what has been perpetrated by their surrounding Arab neighbors.” Sure 13 Israeli killed is the same as 1300 Palestinians killed, strangely enough it is the same formula used by the Nazis in occupied Central and Eastern Europe: 1 German killed would trigger an execution of 100 “locals”. And you probably think that it is the Palestinians who’d stole “your” land after ethnically cleansing it, but the world (at least most of the world) knows the truth and I think you know it too, and if you don’t know it I will leave you with a quote from another hero of Zionist movement David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti – Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

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